20
Jun
12

intersex is NOT a disease

Claim: That is an opinion and I can accept that is where you stand and you have the choice to hold that view if you wish.

The words sex and gender have often been skewed to indicate that these are entirely determined by culture. They are not. They are however a combination of cultural and individual experience and the genetics with which a person was born. Such fallacies are implemented due to the poor research and misleading publications, not of a social psychologist, as this photo suggests, but rather by those of a psychoendocrinologist who developed these theories (Dr. John Money).

We, as animals, do not have a gender, but as social creatures we do. This statement in the picture, however is contradictory to the statement above it which states that gender is biological in nature.
Nouns do have gender, as do pronouns (for the most part), however it is very ethnocentric to make said statement about all languages, as many have gender in items such as desks, pencils, chairs, etc. Secondly, this statement is also stated quite poorly as ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ are not in fact nouns, but adjectives.

To say that XX, XXY, XYY, and the myriad of other variations are ‘deformations’ is both condescending and purposefully inflammatory. Green eyes are a ‘deformation’, as are many other characteristics that are easily seen about any individual’s appearance. The assumption that any of these variations are believed to be newly discovered is, at best, misguided. XX and XY, while being the most commonly occurring genetic variations, however the explanation that follows is incorrect. The XXX, XXY, and XYY variations do not occur due to random mutation of a normal gene. They are, in fact, genes of their own consistency, that is to say they are heritable. Also, to equate said variations of intersex with Down’s Syndrome is incorrect. Those individual with Down’s are most often infertile, and when not, Down’s is not heritable. Additionally, there are many other types of intersex variation that do not include the genetic variations listed above. Some of those are random mutations, yes, but mutation does not equal deformity, only difference.

‘Hermaphrodite’ is a medical term that describes none of the three intersex variations listed above in the picture. The terminology here is very off, which would indicate that the individual who created it is not informed on the correct terminology. Hermaphrodism refers only to individuals who have BOTH male and female primary or secondary sex characteristics and does NOT include those of the ambiguous variations.

99% of XY women do not reach puberty? That statistic is blatently false. I’m not exactly sure how many of them do, as that would actually be a suicide or accident statistic, but the vast majority do in fact reach puberty, but because pubertal onset means an increase in both estrogen and testosterone production, the secondary sex characteristics can be either male, female, or both, depending on the individual. Secondly, the bad grammar here again diminishes the accuracy of this picture (more taller).

“Take the brain that occurs the most” doesn’t even make sense, see comment above. The male brain has no different ‘parts’ than the female brain. This entire section makes no sense whatsoever if anyone is even remotely educated in brain structures. There are relatively few sex differences between male and female brains. The ones that do exist occur after pubertal onset, when there is a major change in growth and a pruning of unused neural pathways. Some suggest that the cultural norms of what females are expected to do vs males may be responsible for these differences, other evidence suggests that it may be hormonal. The reality is that they just aren’t sure. The only significant difference between the two is size. Women’s brains tend to be somewhat smaller, but have an increased number of gyri, thus increasing the overall surface area.

There is not a legitimate scientist (endocrine, geneticist, neural, or otherwise) who would use brain structure as a determining factor of sex. That is another blatantly false claim. Again, male and female brains do NOT have different parts.

Well, for all the arguing against any rights for intersex individuals, at least it makes a good argument for transsexuals. False, but convincing, nonetheless. In reality, what the photo to the left fails to indicate (as does the text to the right) is that the hypothalamic activity (and yes, that is what the photo to the left is actually showing) is changed with high levels of chronic stress. MTF transsexuals have an incredibly high level of chronic stress and, thus, would have the levels concurrent with those of females. A good example of this contractual error is the SIDS research of the early 20th century. Hundreds of thousands of children’s brains were irradiated to reduce the size of the hypothalamus because they thought that large ones caused SIDS to occur. In reality, they were only comparing upper class SIDS deaths to those of poor (and highly stressed) infants lost to other causes (such as starvation). Bad sample, much? Point being, this is being misattributed to sex differences when it is in fact a stress difference.

Cisgendered is an act of choosing not to PERFORM gender, not to identify that one is not present. Again, false. And why, exactly does this photo repeatedly compare intersex to physical illness or life threatening differences? Intersex is not life threatening (unless someone who is ignorant or misinformed beats someone to death).

And now, we get personal. Call it logical fallacy if you wish, but as I have offered fact alone up to this point, I really don’t give a shit. The last comment on the right would indicate that A. intersex individuals are sterile (which is true in the minority, but most are fertile) and that B. fertility should be somehow controlled, or intersex individuals should be somehow contained so as not to spread their ‘disease’. There is a reason that there is no source information on this photo. It promotes genocide, is inflammatory, and uses (at best) half truths to make a point for hurting people who deserve nothing but the same humane treatment every other person receives. How dare you, or anyone else imply that intersex people are any less people than you are. It is exactly this type of ignorance and half education that cause people to die at the hands of doctors who think they know how to hack a person’s genitals to pieces, or at the hands of ignorant bastards who believe that a person’s worth lies in his/her pants.

But I ask you now, what is it exactly that gives you the knowledge to back any of the statements made in this graphic? Is it a degree? Is it hours of research on intersex variations, articles about those variations, history of those? Weeks, months, and even years of talking to experts in the field or the individuals who are affected daily by the ignorance this graphic displays? Perhaps it is the daily experience of facing the challenges often associated with the intersex? Or maybe it is grant writing to the NIH to advance study of the consequences of this type of ignorance on the individuals who suffer it’s wrath? You see, it isn’t culture, biology, or society that cause intersex individuals problems. It isn’t their health, or their fertility, or their brain activity. It is the ignorance of people who refuse to do the work necessary to actually learn something other than the regurgitated (and false) shit that gets thrown at them by a grossly falsified graphic. THAT, is what needs to be fixed.


121 Responses to “intersex is NOT a disease”


  1. June 20, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Nice theory that you have their. Being intersex myself, you can make a good convincing argument

    • June 20, 2012 at 5:23 pm

      Nicky, thank you for both your support and your disclosure. It is often a difficult thing to express about one’s identity.

      • June 20, 2012 at 6:11 pm

        true and the problem with the trans ideology is that they like to constantly use the intersex name to justify their existence or transition to friends and family. It just pisses off intersex people in the end.

      • June 20, 2012 at 7:40 pm

        Interesting that you say that. Undoubtedly, this is true. I know it is because I have had transsexuals confide in me that they honestly HOPED they were intersex, a way to justify how they feel, I guess.

        I’m not pissed off about it though. I feel like, if anyone out there will understand the fight of an intersex person or their parent, the trans person would. I know it’s not the same by any means, but the binary doesn’t fit either. Also, thanks to the APA, they will be categorized under the same piece of shit diagnostic heading in the DSM-5. I don’t know. Maybe allies of any sort are better than none at all.

      • June 20, 2012 at 7:54 pm

        The problem is their are trans out their who will try and pull a Zoe Allen Brain on people with claims of having an intersex condition to justify their transition to their friends and family.The theory I have, is because trans seem to think intersex is more legitimate than being tran or they are a transsexual in deep denial. I believe it’s both because I think their are some trans who are trying to use the intersex name to legitimatize their existence and try to use the intersex name as justification for their SRS.

        The problem with that is they think being born intersex or having an intersex condition will give them a leg up or justification. What they fail to realize, is that the Grass ain’t greener on the intersex side. It ain’t no fun and no party being born intersex. Even being born intersex, it makes it lot harder to be treated and taken care of. As an intersex person, you don’t get to have a say in what you want. Your right to choose is extremely limited. Trans think that being intersex, they think they’ll get SRS right a way. In fact it’s the opposite and intersex people very rarely get SRS and the medical community is inclined to give it. That’s why Trans have this delusion that being intersex and have this fantasy of wanting and wishing to be intersex. When they don’t realize the reality & consequences of being born intersex.

    • 6 xxyzguy
      June 30, 2012 at 4:08 pm

      D. Lynn, I can’t reply to your original comment, why is that? Anyway I see you’re referring to those brain cells nuclei images, I’ve seen those before in a series of videos by Veronica Drantz Phd called “Myth & Science of Sexuality” that you can find on YouTube. Dr Drantz supports the notion of male and female and transsexual and homosexual and heterosexual brain.

      The argument against hers is that the study she references has never been replicated, even though others have tried, many times. It may be that there are insufficient Transsexual brains to study, or it may be that cellular structure alters as the owners of them perform different exercises.

      Such as we all know that if we learn to type well, without need to look at the keyboard, the cellular structure of the brain cells that control that act become larger. In me, my brain cells in that area are definitely not well developed. 🙂 But our actions determine how well our brains cope with those actions. There may be differences inn the various brains because of the way the brain is used, not our actions being dictated by our brain usage.

    • July 1, 2012 at 3:02 am

      “‘Hermaphrodite’ is a medical term that describes none of the three intersex variations listed above in the picture. The terminology here is very off, which would indicate that the individual who created it is not informed on the correct terminology. Hermaphrodism refers only to individuals who have BOTH male and female primary or secondary sex characteristics and does NOT include those of the ambiguous variations.”

      The above is not true, sorry, it’s all wrong. Hermaphrodite as a medical diagnosis, not a social construct, is persons with “ovarian and testicular tissue in the same or opposite gonads.” This is the accepted medical definition and you can find it mentioned on many medical websites.

      Inappropriate secondary sexual characteristics are indicators of disease. So gynaecomastia, breast development in males, is a disease. Women with facial hair after menopause is a disease. These are examples of inappropriate secondary sex characteristics.

  2. June 20, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Reblogged this on Living Kallmann's Syndrome and commented:
    I have to agree, being born with an Intersex condition is not a disease. It’s a genetic DNA condition that effects intersex people on the Genetic DNA level.

    • 9 xxyzguy
      June 29, 2012 at 9:39 pm

      You actually agree with something Nicky, bloody amazing! Intersex is a generic word representing a great many disorders of sex development, and you do not have a disorder of sex development. You have a disorder of puberty. That’s why you look too young for your age, as you have insufficient testosterone to fully masculinise.

      I expect your way of being, the way you come across to people and doctors, is the reason why you’re prescribed such a low level of testosterone. You have sufficient to avoid osteoporosis, you don’t have sufficient to grow up. Have you never wondered why it is that you’ve been on the same level since you were first diagnosed as a teenager?

      In normal Kallmann males their testosterone level is increased as they age, to keep them in pace with their unaffected peers. In you, nobody in your family and none of your doctors expect you to form a relationship, or get married, or do any of the normal things regular people do, heterosexual, homosexual or otherwise.

    • 10 xxyzguy
      June 30, 2012 at 4:41 am

      I got your comment about my manhood, it is fantastic. I kid you not. XXY guys are supposed to have a small penis, one of the XXY guys you mentioned claims to have a small penis. When I was first diagnosed all my doctors wanted to give me an erection as my notes say “….he has good penile and scrotal development….” and I agree. At the time I never thought I had anything special, it worked, did the job it’s supposed to do, no big deal really.

      After I started taking testosterone though, at a rate to age me, I noticed substantive increase in penile length and breadth. It was amazing what the right level of testosterone can do, even in someone who has “good development.”

      Of the XXY men I know who claim intersex as their identity, often they claim they were either forced to take testosterone therapy, or that the therapy didn’t work for them. For many years it didn’t work for me either, I didn’t shave over my whole face, I had no body hair, no under arm hair, almost no pubic hair and what there was of it was very thin or sparse and fine, not in any way course. In my mid 30’s I had the appearance of a 15 year old in regard to hair growth and muscle tone.

      Then I decided, with my wife, to complain to my endocrinologist about my lack of masculine development. I didn’t see myself as intersex, I saw myself as immature. I was treated as immature. When involved with outside work and all the men I’m with are hairy muscular beasts, compared to me, I needed to look the part, or be ridiculed forever! I’m sure you do realise the stress of not being taken seriously, and the stress of not being able to perform physically in the working environment.

      The upshot of it all was 500mg Testosterone injections weekly, however that meant 2X250mg injections, which were painful, way too painful for me, so I cut back to 250mgs testosterone weekly, and 5 years later I was fully mature, and being quite successful in my job. I bet you too could gain similar results if you had a doctor to supervise your hormone therapy, that met your needs.

      • June 30, 2012 at 5:01 am

        With that kind of dosage, your overdosing on testosterone and in fact killing yourself slowly with testosterone. Your like those FTMs taking testosterone knowing that you will never be a MAN. No doctor in America would ever give anyone that kind amount. They would have their DEA prescription privileges pulled if they did that. It just clearly shows your a drug abuser and abusing prescription medication by overdosing on it.

      • 12 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 6:05 am

        Nicky darling, I’ve not overdosed testosterone for over 16 years, almost as long as you’ve been taking it! But the question for you is “how much am I taking now?”

      • June 30, 2012 at 11:58 am

        A friend of my ex’s was small for his age as a boy, and was given a testosterone shot when he was 13 or 15 I think. From what I’ve been told, it didn’t really make him taller, he’s a bit bulkier and apparently is “too big” for his boyfriend.

      • June 30, 2012 at 3:12 pm

        Why your ex’s friend was given testosterone I don’t know, I guess there are other reasons for taking it, well of course there are. But, just 1 or 2 injections at 13 or 15 will have no impact at all. Testosterone needs to be taken for a lifetime to have the fullest possible effect, provided it’s at the right dosage.

    • June 30, 2012 at 3:16 pm

      Why your ex’s friend was given testosterone I don’t know, I guess there are other reasons for taking it, well of course there are. But, just 1 or 2 injections at 13 or 15 will have no impact at all. Testosterone needs to be taken for a lifetime to have the fullest possible effect, provided it’s at the right dosage.

  3. June 21, 2012 at 11:17 am

    All good points Nicky and insightful.

    I have never seen being intersex as a disease actually. That to me implies that you can ‘catch it’ or there’s a cure for it. And butchering is not a solution.

    With that said, as Nicky has provided some insight from the intersex point of view, please allow me to do the same from someone in the trans community.

    There are some trans people out there who just want answers. Why are they this way? What drives this feeling they have that their body is wrong? Is it a hardware or software incompatibility?
    For instance, As far as I know, I’ve never been examined/mutilated, etc in my childhood, but I don’t know. My memory of my childhood is very much a blank. I know we forget things about our childhood but I have huge gaps in mine. Things I do remember are kind of confusing to me. Like why was my elementary school uniform different from what the boys wore and more like the girls uniforms? An old class photo showed me this. Or why did I have to see a psychologist when I was about 10 or 11 and why don’t I remember it? Then there is things like my 5’4 height, lack of an adams apple and a voice that didn’t quite break at puberty. Or the period symptoms I get every month. As far as I’ve been able to tell, trans women shouldn’t even go though that. So, DNA testing could help me get answers. But, what if I was intersex? It’s not going to change my life.My life won’t come to a screeching halt and nor will my universe implode. I might be a little upset if my parents hid it from me, But what good would that do me? It wont change who you are or your past. It could turn up some anomaly. I’ve asked my parents, aunts, uncles, etc. and we have no other GLBT family members. So why am I different?

    But I have seen what you are talking about in the trans community in areas I hang out at. And they do get shot down by other members pretty quickly. And I see being trans as more of a curse than anything else in my life. Everyone pretty much hates you. from Feminists to even the GLB community. That’s on top of all the headaches and heartache each person goes though. And I think that too is where some of the ‘hope’ that they are intersex comes from, as if they need it for validation for their existence.

    Which is why there is one label, one identifier, that I cling to. And that is that, whatever I am, I am me above all else. and it overrides Transsexual or Intersex, Gay or Lesbian, etc.

    Anyway, hope that helps.

    • 17 xxyzguy
      June 29, 2012 at 12:43 am

      I always wonder why it is that many people think “disease” represents something that is contagious. There must be dozens of diseases that are not contagious, such as Type 1 & 2 Diabetes, Glaucoma, Leg Ulcers, Heart Disease, Gynaecomastia, Deep Vein Thrombosis, Obesity, Lupus…. etc…… And all the diseases I just mentioned are associated with another disease I know about, Klinefelter’s syndrome untreated. So if there is someone out there who has my version of KS, which is the symptoms of disease, and claims intersex as a result, then they are indeed saying “intersex is disease” as it’s their diseases that bring them to their identity.

  4. June 22, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    I can’t see the above graphic properly so can’t comment on it (it’s just too small for me to read). As Keira has said, we just want a reason why. Excuse my obvious ignorance on the intersex issue, but if you can see that a new born baby is obviously intersex, then that’s proof you cann see, if you can’t see this, then you may live in ignorance until some medical anomoly crops up. Let me put it another way. I’ve been going to my doctor’s for years complaining of being tired, having no energy, sweating for the least little thing, and I thought that all the tests that could be done had been done, so, by doing my own research, it appeared that I might have ME (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in some area of the world). Now this is something that can’t really be tested for. It’s the kind of condition where you have to rule everything out, and then say “well it’s most likely ME”. Now, as far as I’m aware, there’s no actual treatment for ME, and lots of people really don’t take it seriously. They’ll listen to the problems you have, sympathise, but when you tell them it’s ME, their attitude changes completely, and they look at you like you’re just being lazy. Now, 7 years ago, I went to my current GP with a maddening itch down below. My doctor figured out it was thrush, then had the brainwave, that people who are diabetic are prone to thrush infections. He tested my blood sugar, and it was something like 19 something (it should be about 7 or 8). He took more blood to send off to confirm it was diabetes, and it came back that it was. Now, the relief I felt that I actually had something that COULD be treated was immense. Yes, I am on so many pills now that I rattle when I walk, but I now know how to manage my condition. Now, back to the trans thing, we don’t know why people are trans, and most people don’t like not having the answers. I tried for years to figure out why I’m trans, but in the end, I had to get on with my life, and eventually, I decided that I had to transition. It’s not been the easiest of times, but at least I am being honest with myself and with others about who I am and I am a lot happier than I otherwise be. Intersex is not a disease, there may be somethings that intersex children and adults may need from the medical community, but don’t we all. I honestly would not know what to do for the best if I had a child that was born intersex. All I know that I would definitely want to do, would be to make sure my child would be as happy and as safe as I could make them. Here’s one analogy I used with someone the other week to explain being trans. When you make a cup of tea or coffee, you have the tea bag, the milk, water, sugar or sweeteners or niether. You can make it the same way every time you make it, it might look and taste the same every single time, but there will always be the smallest of difference in colour and taste and sweetness, and considering that as humans, we start off as a mix of chemicals from two different people, we might all look similar, but we are all very different too, and none of us are that “perfect cup of tea”.

    • June 22, 2012 at 3:20 pm

      I don’t think it is the intent to disparage any trans person or to even imply that there may or may not be some sort of cause for it. That being said, I think that is where the problem arises. Intersex people don’t WANT people to think there is anything wrong. They don’t WANT to be fixed. They don’t want treatment, counseling, or anything else that implies that because their bodies do not fit the rigid dichotomy, they are somehow broken. They aren’t They are not broken, they do not want their genitals ‘fixed’, they do not want to have their bodies injected with unwanted chemicals to enhance the masculine or feminine. They just want to be.

      Compare that to the trans person. The person who does want their body ‘fixed’. The person who wants what they feel in their brain to match what they see on their body. They want to be able to identify in the dichotomy, to pass (if you will) as what was once outwardly the other.

      It’s not that intersex people dislike the trans community. I think they just really want SOMEBODY to understand that they have to fight for every medical right not to have their bodies or the bodies of their children hacked to pieces because some doctor says they have to do it. While the trans person has to go through a lengthy process of ‘diagnosis’, transition, and the mass of bills associated with the physical transition, the intersex person has to fight against.

      I guess my point is that, while they have many things in common, they are really polar opposites when it comes to the treatment received in the medical community. Also, while I have some understanding of how difficult it is for a trans person to come out as trans after living as not, many people (I think trans included) don’t understand the difficulty with coming out as intersex. If anyone has time, read the post below entitled “Did You Really Just Say That?” It might shed some light on the crap that comes out of people’s mouths when disclosure is necessary.

      And ‘Oopster’, thanks for dropping by! There is another piece below (an older one so you may have to hunt a bit) about the problems facing trans individuals in the healthcare arena.

      • 20 xxyzguy
        June 29, 2012 at 1:10 am

        It is true to say that Transsexual people choose the surgeries those born with ambiguity of their genitalia denounce, when performed without informed consent. However there is no reason why Transpeople and those who identify as intersex by way of physical appearance at birth cannot join forces and support one another. There need no be any enmity at all between the two groups.

        The protagonist in this discussion has no claim at all to represent any persons other than himself, and his views alone. We all know he hates Transsexual people, which according to his own definition of ‘intersex’ excludes himself from the intersex group, as to be included he must accept he is Transsexual in that the disease he claims to be an ‘intersex condition’ is not an ‘intersex condition’ at all. He has a disorder of puberty. He was born obviously male, raised male, and when he was 17 he identified as male and associated almost exclusively with males. When at South Connecticut State University he claimed to be attracted sexually to females, who appeared not to be attracted to him at all, as they were young teenagers and he was a fully grown man. He takes testosterone therapy, which can be for no other reason than to masculinise and age his obviously male body. The protagonist just likes to argue about everything. He lives with his mommy and daddy and has never had a full time job or been required to care for his own needs.

    • June 22, 2012 at 4:25 pm

      I honestly think that alot of Trans are looking to the intersex either for Justification or alibi for their SRS. Some trans have this fantasy of wishing and wanting to be intersex. They have this delusion of wanting to be intersex and will go to great lengths to claim intersex including making up a condition to justify their transsexuality and SRS to their friends and family. I think they believe that being born intersex is real, and it is real to the medical community, then it is being trans. Which is why I think some who claim intersex are really nothing more than a transsexual in deep denial and can’t admit it. So they try to latch themselves to the intersex name for excuse and justification. Which is why intersex people are pissed off at the trans community, when they try to use the intersex name for their own gains.

      Honestly, why would any trans in their right mind would want to claim or be intersex. As a biological born Intersex person, It ain’t no fun and no party being born intersex. It’s very difficult being intersex and you have all the health issues that comes with being intersex that follows you from birth to death. Having that extra gene wrecks your health for life and even puts you at risk for all the associated conditions like hearing issues and cardiovascular to even bone health issues. On top of that your on life time hormones from birth to death and can’t escape it. On top of that, medically & scientifically, You don’t get to have a gender. When your declared to be born intersex, your labeled by the medical & scientific community as a biological indeterminate gender and that sticks with you for LIFE. Which is why being born intersex, is no fun and no party.

      • June 22, 2012 at 5:04 pm

        Nicky, give the new post a read and let me know your thoughts.

      • June 22, 2012 at 6:32 pm

        Thank you for letting me post my thoughts D. and I completely understand how they feel. I’ve seen the discussions Nicky is talking about pop up from time to time. “Could being trans be an intersex condition?”, “I think our brains make us intersex”,etc.

        My point of view on that matter is that Trans folk need to take a chill pill and just relax. We know a heck of a lot more now about what possibly makes us trans than we did 20 years ago. Humans are an extremely complex biological organism. Finding answers takes time. But it does no one any good to prematurely grab the wrong label and slap it on yourself. Just because a guy puts on a dress, doesn’t mean he’s a woman, transsexual or otherwise. right?
        But, we do face some of the same issues as the intersex community. We don’t want to have to jump though hoops to transition. Some I agree should be there, some I don’t. In some places you cant start HRT until you’ve lived for X amount of time as a woman. That does not help in the least if you are 6 foot tall (And most transsexuals are), and the manliest-looking male on the planet. We don’t want to be sensationalized, Or be seen as anyone’s enemy. We just want to live our lives as ourselves.

        In the public eye, intersex people are seen as an interesting oddity. Every intersex story I’ve ever seen on a TV show has had a very human element to it. There was one show on Sally Jessie Raphael years ago about an intersex woman who’s body was very masculinised. But her gender was feminine. everyone would mistake her for a guy. And it was genuinely heartbreaking.
        Now, consider every trans story you’ve seen on those shows. Trans women parading around in a ‘Is this a guy? or a girl?’ guessing game. or “I dated a transsexual and I didn’t know it” on Jerry springer. There’s a world of difference there. The really bad thing is that members of our community actually did that. It did not help us in the least. Joe public thinks we are just gay men putting on dresses to seduce a straight guy now.

        Now we are seeing that children are coming out as trans too. And that perhaps, OMG, maybe we aren’t so crazy after all. When I figured out who and what I was, I was scared. I kept it quiet for years because I was already being picked on and bullied for being perceived as effeminate and gay. Word that I was transsexual would have gotten me killed at that age. These kids are choosing to be themselves very early on. And it kind of scares me. Whenever a child comes out as trans it seems to become a sensational story in the papers. All that child wants to do is live their own life as normally as possible, just as us older trans folk do. because while some of us see being trans as a gift, there are others who don’t. I don’t want to be transsexual. I didn’t ask for it. The best analogy I can even come up with for being trans is that it’s like that feeling you get where you leave your house to go to work and while there, you realize that you might have left the stove on. It’s that feeling that something isn’t right. But you can never go back to check and it digs in to your brain. it wont go away and the feeling gets stronger over time. You end up wanting this feeling to go away to the point where suicide would be better and all you want is that feeling to be gone.
        For me, it took medical science to finally not feel my body is wrong. For others… They’ve taken suicide.

        But with a clear head came questions. Why am I not 6 foot tall? why do I not have an adams apple? Why the heck did taking a male vitamin supplement cause me physical discomfort if my body was male? Why do I get irritable, cramping, bloating, etc. about every 28 days or so when my transsexual sisters don’t get anything but mood changes at most? Why has everyone for my entire life seen me as gay when I’ve never dated a guy? I would like to answer these questions. Some have suggested I’m intersex In fact 2 of the people who have suggested it are intersex themselves, that more biological things point to me being more female than male. I doubt I am. I hope I am not. Not because I see being intersex as being shameful, far from it. But because that would redefine my world once again. I tried not to be ‘fixed’ for the longest time. But my answer to making that nagging feeling go away was also almost my final answer to any questions at all. Now, one year and 4 months after transition, that feeling is very much gone. I’m in my happy place for the most part and living my life with a smile on my face again.

        I would honestly love to talk to Nicky sometime and discuss these issues in greater detail sometime. I agree that there is no benefit in claiming to be intersex if you are not. And I think therein lies part of the problem. with being intersex, the deliberation is done. It’s biological, in the DNA, etc. With the trans community, the jury is out. We are trans because of what? DNA? Hormone deficiency? Nurture? because we were in the wrong line when we got our bodies given to us? Nothing definitive yet.

      • June 22, 2012 at 7:24 pm

        Their has been recent cases of Trans people trying to claim intersex as either an excuse or justification for their transition. I firmly believe that it could be either for justification or an excuse to explain to people. Their are trans people such as Zoe Allen Brain, who have been known to claim intersex in order to justify his existence and use it as an excuse for his transition. Even more recent ones like the ones in the link
        http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/05/25/man-admitted-to-hospital-for-kidney-stone-discovers-hes-a-woman/

        http://twanzphobic.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/faux-intersexism-breaks-out-in-denver/

        Clearly show that their are some trans who are trying to claim intersex as either an excuse or justification for their transsexuality. Which in all cases are just transsexuals in deep denial and can’t admit it up front.

        Their is an article that Raven Kaldera wrote called “Dangerous Intersections: Intersex and Transgender Differences”. It’s an interesting take on the issue and it is something you all can try and read up on. Here’s the link
        http://www.ravenkaldera.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html

      • 25 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 5:01 am

        Ummm Nicky, people with Kallmann syndrome don’t have an “extra” gene, they have at least 1, possibly more in each individual, mutated gene(s). I’m not certain, but I understand there are 8 genes that have been identified as causing Kallmanns syndrome and some just have hypogonadtropic hypogonadism, that means they have a sense of smell, unlike usual Kallmann people who have no sense of smell.

        And for the casual reader, Kallmann syndrome is characterised by a failure to enter puberty. It is much more common in males than females, but fertility treatments for Kallmann females is much more advanced than for Kallmann males, that’s only because much more research has been done on infertility causes in females than in males.

        In people with Kallmann syndrome, they do not produce the gonadtropins LH and FSH as their mutated gene(s) prevent the hypothalamus from producing them, thus the gonads (ovaries and testes) are not instructed to function. If they receive medication that mimics LH & FSH their gonads do function, and they can both (males and females) be fertile as a result. There is very exciting research being undertaken regarding Kallmann people and fertility treatments.

      • June 30, 2012 at 5:08 am

        Their goes the so called Idiot expert trying to MANsplain intersex to people. I see your doc dropping quotes and even cut and past facts like Zoe Allen Brain.

        Quite frankly your the most uneducated idiot that has ever graced the Internet. I see your still using 40 yr old science to prove your point. When in reality they have been disproven time and time again. Even by Kailana and many doctors.

        It’s clear you have no Idea what your talking about and quite frankly, I am very bored of your childish crap. So why don’t you go run along and go hassle someone else who gives a DAMN.

      • 27 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 6:14 am

        Doc dropping quotes, where are they Nicky, please show everybody where I’ve quoted from any source rather than using my own words to educate this enlightened audience?

        But you know Jan don’t you, from Yahoo’s Kallmann Syndrome Group, she’s my main source of information, apart from private reading. And lots of people don’t really like reading other peoples links, they do like reading about what each has learned or experienced. You might like to give it a try sometime? After all dropping my link to my comments and video did not have the effect your desired last time you did it. Maybe you can offer an argument that’s well thought out as to why I ought not say Klinefelter’s syndrome is associated with Transsexualism by co-incidence only?

        I won’t be dying to read your treatise, but I will give it serious consideration if it’s good enough.

  5. June 23, 2012 at 2:26 am

    I see where you are coming from Nicky. Thank you for sharing. I have actually read the first story and wondered how often that happens. How many people have gone in to hospital and discovered they are actually intersex? . The 3rd link I am reading as I write this. It is very insightful. And the author is right about how you define transgender and even the term transsexual. As a community, we are not as organized as I think we could be. For instance, Radfems have a very clear definition of who and what constitutes a woman. While I don’t agree with their definition, I do admire them for sticking to their guns and the unity they show. They don’t deviate from it nor do they constantly re-interpret it. We have our definitions, but it seems like we rehash the same discussions about it.

    Where Raven talks about envy of Intersex people by transsexuals, I don’t know. I myself don’t feel envy, especially over mutilation. I am extremely against it. If I had a child that was intersex and I took their freedom to just be who they are away from them I would consider myself a disgraceful parent. We try to teach children “you can be anything you want to be”. How can you do that if you made sure, right from birth, that the child could not be whatever he or she wanted to be ?
    I don’t like being transsexual. It’s something I wouldn’t wish on my enemies and I firmly believe it is caused in the womb. What bits and pieces I do remember of my childhood tells me that it couldn’t be nurture. And the case with David Raimer I think helped prove this. But, I at least have some control over how and to what extent I go in my transition. How can anyone be envious of having your body altered against your will? For me it’s about shutting my mind up or clicking OK on an error message. As a male, I certainly didn’t have this ‘Male Privilege’ that is so often talked about. I was still treated like a woman. So not much has changed for me socially. I joke that I’m such a tomboy, my body just went that way.
    Being intersex and being transsexual should not be seen as shameful. They are both simply aspects of nature, just another way of living. And given how the religious right like to condemn anything BUT God, I do see a need for some cohesive unity. Looking at how many transsexuals there are, we should value our uniqueness while valuing the intersex community’s and offering genuine support for our intersex Brothers and Sisters. One day i hope that science can finally clear up the trans/intersex debate conclusively. But for now, I’ll still stick with the label of “ME”. It’s less complex, not open to interpretation or debate and certainly not the headache these kinds of things seem to become. When I’ve said I ‘may’ be intersex myself, it’s because I don’t find answers to the physical symptoms I get in the trans community or among the general public. But, someone did direct me to an intersex board where about 2 other people had the same thing. I just want to know that, while it is pretty uncomfortable, it’s not a major health issue. And to any trans woman who would love to experience the joys of having a menstrual cycle, you’re crazy! It really does suck as badly as they say it does.

    • June 23, 2012 at 3:49 am

      The problem in the Denver story is that you have a life long cross-dresser, who is a repressed homosexual has life long internalized homophobia. Marries a biological woman, Fathered 6 kids and went to the hospital and fakes a Kidney stones story to fool the wife and friends. The fact that someone who claims to be intersex and fathers 6 kids, just proves that their not intersex and No intersex person that I know of can father or BEAR children Naturally. It just goes to show in the long run that their are transsexuals out their who are faking intersex in order to either justify their transition or use it as an excuse for why they are trans.

      As for the RadFems, they are clear on the biological reality and know the biological difference. On top of that Radfem do make the biological distinction between Intersex people and trans people. They base that on the biological reality that they see on a daily basis.

      As far as for Raven Kaldera’s essay, You have to read it to understand it.

      • June 23, 2012 at 12:43 pm

        Nicky, I have to disagree here. There are certain variations of intersex that do not affect fertility. It is conceivable that a person who is intersex could father children but also have female ambiguity, in particularly if said person was never surgically altered. I haven’t read the story of which you speak, so I would have to see what variation is claimed before I could judge the accuracy.

      • June 23, 2012 at 12:52 pm

        OK, I just read a bit of the link you posted (hadn’t had a chance just yet). With the type of intersex claimed, it is possible to have fathered the children. That being said, I still agree with you. The femininity that is claimed are social constructs. Make up at the age of six does not a woman make. I could go into a bunch of psychological mumbo jumbo about cognitive dissonance and self deception, but I won’t bother with that here. Fact is, I agree that the diagnosis (if real) is being used to justify transition. There have been a great many AIS people who continue to live as women. Actually, I do not know of a case where a woman transitioned to male after learning of her AIS.

      • June 23, 2012 at 3:43 pm

        I have to disagree with you on that one. Vast majority of intersex variations are sterile and can’t reproduce naturally. Their is on going research to make intersex people fertile, but as of right now, they have not perfected the technique and the science isn’t their. So as for any trans who claims intersex and fathers or bears children. They are not intersex and are transsexuals in deep denial. They are claiming it because they want justification or excuse for their transsexualism.

      • 33 xxyzguy
        June 29, 2012 at 2:27 am

        Nicky said:

        “…… (The) Vast majority of intersex variations are sterile and can’t reproduce naturally……”

        Since there is no absolute definition of what intersex is, how can you claim all intersex people are anything?

        “Their (he means ‘there’) is on going research to make intersex people fertile,”

        Is there? Where is this “research” Nicky, where are your references?

        “but as of right now, they have not perfected the technique and the science isn’t their (he means ‘there’).

        I know of a great many XXY men who’ve used Intracytoplasmic Sperm Injection to have children, I know of 1 XXY man in Israel with normally sized and functioning testes. Maybe you can check out Dr Silber’s video with a man diagnosed with Klinefelter’s syndrome, and read his entire website about fertility techniques used in humans?
        http://www.infertile.com/media_pages/educational/Klinefelters-patient.htm

        “So as for any trans who claims intersex and fathers or bears children. They are not intersex…”

        I think we can leave other peoples identity of themselves to themselves, that seems to be the humanistic thing to do.

        “and are transsexuals in deep denial. They are claiming it because they want justification or excuse for their transsexualism.”

        I do think there’s a problem with people pretending to have medical conditions to claim as justification for transitioning. I don;t think they’re doing themselves any favours by such a pretence, and do cause confusion for groups dealing with serious medical co0nditions, people like Mishakailana on YouTube for instance, who claims to have 3 completely different medical conditions that can be described as ‘intersex conditions’ in order to justify her transition. Mishakailana has produced 2 videos showing her karyotype to be 46XY, yet claims 45,X/46,XY mosaicism. Claims to have two complete sets of opposite functioning gonads in their correct anatomical position, a feat never described in literate. And to suffer from VCAH (Virilising Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia) with male genitals! Mishakailana is a liar, she is a M2F Transsexual.

      • June 29, 2012 at 2:56 am

        “Claims to have two complete sets of opposite functioning gonads in their correct anatomical position, a feat never described in literate. ”

        Actually, there are at least two that I know of. One is in research documented by Krafft-Ebing (I am not certain on the publication and will add the citation later) and the other is in an historic work titled “Tractus de Hermaphrodites” by Giles Jacob.

    • 35 xxyzguy
      June 30, 2012 at 6:29 am

      According to Michelle O’Brien of OII, who is a friend on my Facebook, and we are definitely in opposition to certain topics, all anyone need do is IDENTIFY as INTERSEX and they are INTERSEX.

      So you are intersex and do not let anybody treat you otherwise, or say you’re not, unless of course you’re in the habit of accusing others of not being intersex and requiring proof of their claim, then you’ll be subject to your own rules, and leave yourself open to accusation.

  6. June 23, 2012 at 5:49 am

    Just because they are there, doesn’t mean it’s the majority or all of us. I read Raven’s essay. I think it was a load of rubbish.

    Just kidding! ^_~

    Actually it was really thought provoking and insightful. I’ve bookmarked it to read again later at some point, but to also help pass the message along the next time this issue is brought up. And it most undoubtedly will come up again. I hope that it will help somehow.I had to google this Zoe Alan Brain person because I’ve seen that name popping up quite a bit lately. Now I know why.
    Anyway, I hope I have at least been able to give you some insight into our thinking.

    • June 23, 2012 at 3:53 pm

      Zoe Alan Brain is one of those Transsexuals that like to claim Intersex and has drawn fire from Radfems for that. They know that Zoe Alan Brain is a Transsexual in deep denial and pretending to be intersex. Zoe’s known to drop links to justify his existence and his transition to anyone. He’s why Intersex people are pissed at Transsexuals for trying to claim intersex and pretending to be one.

      • June 23, 2012 at 4:49 pm

        Nicky, please show some mutual respect by not referring to transwoman using male references. However you see them, we see ourselves as women, and ftm’s as men.

      • June 23, 2012 at 4:56 pm

        I will not because according to Biology and science, Trans women are not Women. You can say all you want, but according to biology and science trans women are not and will never be called women. You can deny Biology and the biological reality all you want. As for me, I see Biology for what it is and see the biological reality.

      • June 23, 2012 at 5:19 pm

        I said believe what you want, but disrespecting people by referring to them using pronouns you know will upset them really doesn’t help anyone. I asked for a little mutual respect, which is a 2 way street, how do you expect to get any respect from others, when you don’t show some yourself.

      • June 23, 2012 at 6:12 pm

        I still will never ever refer to transwomen as women. Biology still calls them mutilated men and Radfems like Gallusmag still call transwomen men. They are biological born women and as a result they are no biological women. Respect comes, when you start respecting boundaries and knowing your place. Telling people to call transwoman women, is wrong because it deny’s the biological facts and the biological reality.

      • June 23, 2012 at 10:36 pm

        Nicky, it is your choice to not refer to MTFs as women, but please respect others on this blog in discussion. If you choose not to use pronouns specific to what is preferred, at least gender neutral ones.

        Also, I still disagree on the fertility thing. It is possible. My child has a sperm count at this point, so it is believed that he will be fertile. Also, many who have both organs are fertile in one or the other. Additionally, those women who are altered at birth because of clitoral length are usually fertile. Women not fertile are most frequently those with a genetic variation or males reassigned at birth.

        I disagree with your definition of sex as well. To put the definition solely in the hands of biology and science is to place it in the same hands that would mutilate genitals because they fall outside of two standard deviations. Personally, these are the last people with whom I would trust the definition of sex and gender, especially when one considers AIS cases (mentioned earlier). These women have no clue they are XY until adulthood in many cases. Is it fair at that point in their lives to tell them that they are undoubtedly male?

        That being said, Oopster, the brain studies of MtFs is horribly constructed, as the brain structures in question shrink with chronic stress. I don’t know about you, but every trans person I know (transgender or transsexual) undergo a great deal of chronic stress.

      • 43 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 4:44 pm

        “I will not because according to Biology and science, Trans women are not Women.”

        And according to law they are women, and we all want to keep the law don’t we?

  7. June 23, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    I think you’ll find that it’s the Evangelical Christians that refer to transwoman as being “mutilated men”, and I don’t even know what radfems goals are except to complain that life isn’t fair. Science can and has proved many things, and has shown that the brains of transwomen match that of natal women and the same with transmen and natal men. There are more colours of the rainbow than can be seen with the naked eye, and just because something hasn’t been proven to everyone’s satisfaction, doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Some still believe that the Earth is a ltitle over 5,000 years old, when we have the remains of dinosaurs in museums that are at least 65 millions years old. Feminism is about everyone being equal, and not having to conform to stereotypes as far as I’m aware, yet Radical Feminism just seems to be “live by our rules or you’re a mysogonist”.

    • 45 xxyzguy
      July 1, 2012 at 12:30 am

      Evangelical Christians, and Jews refer to me as a eunuch, an emasculated man, untrustworthy, incapable of holding high office in the assembly, being disqualified from attending services. Deuteronomy 23:1 All that is because I’ve had my non functioning testes removed. I am a mutilated man also, in their eyes! In my eyes the bible is a ridiculous document that has no basis in fact. Such as if I were to look up a character called “Eve” I’d discover she was created from a mans rib, his name was “Adam.” In that regard “Eve” must have had XY sex chromosomes and would have had either Swyers syndrome, and no ability to reproduce in her era, or had Complete Androgen Insensitivity syndrome and again had no ability to reproduce in her or any era. Therefore every part of the biblical story comes to a grinding halt at her creation.

      OK So if you want to believe in God feel free, just don’t impose your beliefs on others if you do.

  8. June 23, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    *sigh* I can see we have a long way to go….

    This is going to hurt me because I thought we actually had a dialogue going . I don’t care if you and Oopster declare handbags at dawn, and beat each other senseless. But I feel like my writing has fallen on closed eyes.

    Nicky, if you want to go by biology should we define intersex people as ‘it’? Since they lie somewhere between the male/female lines? I dont know about you but I’d find that insulting. Trust me, I face people like you at work all the time. using male pronouns doesn’t sting like it used to. the only difference is, you haven’t waved a bible around yet and said “God made me do it, it’s here in black and white.”

    If you want that respect it works both ways. You’re not going to earn the respect from our corner by pissing everyone of us off. Right? That is basically the whole issue at hand we have discussed. And right now, the intersex community doesn’t know it’s place because it’s not even got one to begin with. It’s been largely silent. In fact I have not heard of any legislation that has passed recently specifically aimed at making the lives of intersex people any better. Babies are still being butchered around the globe by ignorant surgeons. We’re fighting our battles and slowly gaining some ground Here in the US, we now have protection against discrimination in the workplace. That wasn’t luck That was a lot of hard work. I know the two women who’s legal cases helped win us that protection. We’re not sitting around doing nothing to be heard.
    You said it yourself. Healthcare is even worse for you than it is for us. Get organized and fight for it to benefit your community for a change instead of riding our coat tails!

    Frankly, I don’t care if our two communities never get along. Not anymore. You both act like little kids sometimes who need a time out.

    “It wasn’t me, the Mutilated men started it.”
    “Nuh uh, It started it.”

    If it were up to me I would end the debate once and for all!

    Until it can be scientifically proven, Transsexuals are not the same as intersex. Similar at the very most, UNTIL such time it is proven otherwise.

    Oh yes, And you’re wrong,

    ‘Woman’ is a social term. Female is the biological term. Therefore since we live in society as the female role, Woman is still a valid term to use with us. The animal kingdom doesn’t have ‘women.’

    Again, just because there were a couple of bad apples in the bunch, doesn’t mean the rest of us are.

    • June 24, 2012 at 1:15 am

      Keaira, please do not allow the anger you feel now flood over to all those who support you and need your support as well. While I do understand Nikki’s view to a point, I also understand yours. Allowing animosity to separate any in the LGBTI community is a way to keep any of us for working for and along side of the others, and I will not accept that. I absolutely include the I in the alphabet. The greatest allies I have found within the US are in that alphabet and I refuse to break away from that support for the sake of logistics. The Ts and Is differ a great deal, but there is also a great deal shared, and it is through those shared struggles that we fight, hand in hand, for equality, not for a stratification, one above the other.

      As for the fight for intersex equality? That has been going on for decades. Alice Dreger and Howard Devour have led that fight, going so far as to meet with the president. Because of their work, the I was included in the NIH call for health related research in the LGBTI community. As such, I am currently writing a research grant, along with three colleagues, to show, empirically, the long term consequences of surgical intervention in a way that has not been done before. I am working with individuals who are at the forefront of intersex education, one of which offers the only intersex (and trans, I might add) medical ethics class in my state. I have worked under her and she has guided me in my research, assisted me to the best of her ability with my child, and is a dear friend.

      Keaira, I wish I could make you understand the battle. I don’t care (ok, that’s not entirely true) who started it, although I can in fact isolate him. All I know is that my child has to fight, often time literally, because of who he is. We have to put a care plan in place for school next year because of who he is. I have no parental support, no one who has traveled this road before me. With every new challenge, I must reinvent the wheel. I have a great deal of support from those in the intersex community from Australia and the Netherlands, but that is just not the same. These are post surgical individuals who are fighting for their health rights, post op. I have attempted to create an online support groups for other parents of intersex children, not to have someone to bitch to (although sometimes having someone that understands the constant bathroom puddles would be nice), but to have someone to share ideas with. My child is not altered, has not had genetic testing, and has not received any sort of hormone therapy. I refused it. His PCP refused it. His urologist refused it. He is who he is and we have been incredibly lucky with those who provide his healthcare, but most are not so fortunate.

      Please understand that, just as yours does, sometimes are battles become too much. Sometimes the snide comment or just flat out ignorance is too much. Sometimes having to explain the same shit over and over to the five thousandth teacher, guidance counselor, or even family member is just too damned much. Please, don’t go away angry. Just remember that we are sisters with different battles in the same war.

  9. June 24, 2012 at 7:14 am

    D, I am not angry.

    I do understand the battle and the issues at hand. Believe it or not I do care. if I didn’t I would not be here trying to get one person to realize that we are not the enemy. For instance, at work I am constantly harassed over my name, gender and where I go to the restroom. I am constantly having to fight to be myself and be seen as anything but a deviant or freak. A couple of weeks ago I was told I could no longer use the women’s rest room and that I had to use the unisex bathrooms instead Just right out of the blue.There are only 3 of them in the building One of which is locked at night, one is in an area that is time locked so after 5pm I can’t use that either. The last one is way in the back of the plant and I work at the front of it. My issues are with the men and women who make my life extremely difficult. But, I continue to fight because if I give up and roll over, they will just do this to the next person to transition there. And then Nicky here wants to do the same thing he is complaining about,- taking one’s identity and making it invalid. And that’s on top of this mystery..period-like symptom problem that has me baffled,
    So I do understand too well the struggle that’s going on.
    If I didn’t care about the mutilation of children by so-called doctors, I would not have posted on here. I would do the same for any child being harmed.

    • June 24, 2012 at 11:00 am

      I think a lot of the issues intersex and transpeople face are very similar, but I also think that trans rights have gotten better, because for better or worse, we end up being more visible, whereas some intersex people don’t even know untill something crops up. I can’t help but think about Caster Semanya a couple of years ago and being absolutely disgusted by some of the things said about her. She broke several records, she looks very masculine, her testosterone levels are high I think some speculated, well she’s an athlete, it’s her job to break records, she’s African, compare how she looks to other Africans, her testosterone levels? She’s an athete, they’re bound to be higher than the norm surely. I’m sort of glad she’ll be competing at the London olympics (glad she can compete, but hoping the British athletes will win), but 3 years of her competitive career has gone while the people who cried foul we’re making “sure” she was “female enough”. We don’t get up in arms when men break records, are we testing Usain Bolt every week he competes? No we’re not. Some people have natural abilities, and others have to work at things.

      • June 24, 2012 at 1:10 pm

        Well said. Now if we could just get the OIC to quit genetic testing and parading naked women so female athletes can do what they do without embarrassment and harassment.

      • 51 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 5:49 am

        D. Lyn Thompson said:

        “Well said. Now if we could just get the OIC to quit genetic testing and parading naked women so female athletes can do what they do without embarrassment and harassment.”

        To date the only genetic test is SRY gene testing, to see if it’s active or not. Persons with SRY positive gene are usually male with a substantially higher level of testosterone than women. A female who is SRY positive, like a man, will be more physically able than a usual female. The parading of naked women to ascertain sex is no longer practiced. There is a hormone test to measure the level of androgen in blood. The level of testosterone a man has is determined on the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone, if the ratio is greater than 4 to 1 a mandatory investigation is carried out which takes into account pathological co0nditions that may affect the ratio. In women a similar test is done, but I don’t know if it’s the T/E ratio that’s considered?

      • June 30, 2012 at 1:36 pm

        I’m not sure o the ratio either. They have made some progress in the last 20 years, but it is just silly that they still do the testing. In all of modern Olympic history, there has been only one case in which a biological male (in every sense of the word) attempted to compete as a woman. That was in the Berlin Olympics. It makes me want to look them in the eyes and “LET IT GO ALREADY!”

      • June 30, 2012 at 3:30 pm

        Yes I totally agree, the only people the testing is targeted towards is women and women who’re more physically developed than usual women, or women with more pronounced genitals, which is just plain sexist!

        There are plenty of XXY guys who would be disadvantaged if they tried to compete with regular XY guys in every area of sport, but they’re forced to take either no hormone therapy whilst competing or a very much reduced level than their bodies need, and that’s not fair at all.

        In New Zealand our Klinefelter Association had on guy picked for the Commonwealth Games in Shooting, he declared i his hormone therapy and the team promptly refused to select him to shoot. That’s one way to get around the problem of treatments supposedly enhancing ability, but what about all the other XY guys, why are they not forced to take testosterone reducing hormones to make them all level, so that all the males had the same level or ratio, if being fair was really their intention?

    • 54 xxyzguy
      June 30, 2012 at 5:30 am

      I think it’s absolutely diabolical that you’re being discriminated against at your work because of your sex. If you’re in any western style culture there are probably laws against that type of treatment. I think you need to see an employment lawyer and investigate the possibility of forcing your employer to treat you fairly, and also discourage others from discriminating against you.

  10. 55 xxyzguy
    June 27, 2012 at 12:42 am

    Your interpretation of genetics is, at best, incomplete, at worst flawed. Genes are segments of chromosomes, chromosomes are not segments of genes. Additional chromosomes such as XXY causes infertility in males. XXX causes educational problems in females. XYY causes behavioural problems in males. None of them are intersex. People with Down syndrome are invariable fertile and used to be sterilised without their consent, they are almost always mentally retarded. Downs syndrome is expressed as Trisomy 21, or 3 chromosomes of the 21st pair, an additional and entire chromosome. It is definitely heritable. The difference between sex chromosome abnormalities and Trisomy 21 in inheritance is that the sex chromosome abnormalities are random events, inherited obviously but not familial. Downs’ syndrome is usually familial, that is of you have 1 child with Downs’ syndrome you’re very likely to have another. But having a child with an additional sex chromosome does not guarantee your next child will or is likely to.

    Due to a process called X inactivation all people on the planet have only 1 X chromosome active in their cells. No matter how many extra X’s there are only 1 is working. There are genes in an area of the X called the ‘pseudo-autosomal region’ (PAR) that are active, and to date none have been identified as having anything to do with the determination of sex. XXY’s with male genitals at birth are male, almost always infertile, grow up as boys and develop into men. They have difficulties with infertility because the PAR active genes interfere with meitosis (cell division) that prevents sperms from developing. This can hardly be described as a natural event.

    • June 27, 2012 at 1:51 pm

      I appreciate your feedback. I respectfully disagree on a great deal of it, however. According to the NIH, while many of those with Down’s can reproduce, there is not an increase in the statistical frequency of Down’s in their children. This is what I mean by heritability. When one has it, they are more likely to have a child who has it. I did not state that all those with Down’s are infertile, in fact I explicitly stated that they are not.

      As for your analysis of what does and does not qualify as intersex, again I disagree. Genetic differences on the sex chromosomes are medically designated as intersex. You may disagree, but as it stands, they are qualified as such.

      I am completely lost as to how I confused chromosome with gene, as I did not use the word chromosome.

      And lastly, a natural event is an event that occurs naturally, which intersex variations do. What does not occur naturally is the treatment of these individuals by doctors for the purposes of ‘fixing’ them.

      • June 27, 2012 at 4:10 pm

        I have to agree with you, Graeme’s interpretation is all wrong and very much flawed. He’s one of those idiots who think’s he’s gods gift to the intersex community. Him and Zoe Allen Brain are nut jobs of the intersex community with no background or no education

  11. June 27, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Graeme put his thoughts and his reasons behind it, Lynn then put her thoughts too stating why she disagreed, you Nicky just called him a “nut-job”. Do you show any mutual respect for anyone?

    • June 27, 2012 at 5:59 pm

      Ah no, for Nut jobs like Graeme and Zoe Allen Brain, Never. They harm Intersex people and pass around false assumptions as if it’s facts.

      • June 27, 2012 at 6:46 pm

        What you’re doing is no better. Set an example and people will listen, scream and shout and people will stare.

      • June 27, 2012 at 6:48 pm

        What ur doing is no better than bullying people into believing your a woman when in reality and sciences tells ur that trans women are MEN by DNA

      • June 27, 2012 at 6:56 pm

        I’m not bullying anyone, and I AM a woman. Science can be used to prove anything, and your arguments completely ignore trans men. How do you know what sex you are? Do you look at your body and think “that’s right”, or do you think “that’s not right”. Knowing what sex you are / feel is innate, and most of the world are lucky enough that their brains and bodies match in sex / gender. Those that are trans and intersex get the shiity end of the stick (pardon the language but there’s no better way I can think to put that), and the last thing we should be doing is fighting each other. If you want to trade insults with people then you go ahead and do that, and you’ll show that your arguements have no validity. Get this straight, I do not give a crap what science, religion, you, Barney the dinosaur, the power rangers or anyone else says, I am a woman, your opinion of me is irrelevant.

      • June 28, 2012 at 1:44 am

        Sarah (can I call you that?), I applaud you for standing strong in your gender identity, regardless of you current position on the road to transition. I certainly agree that we need to work together and not divided.

      • June 28, 2012 at 2:48 am

        Yea right, and as they say, I’ll take that with a grain of salt and I’ll believe it until I see it in person.

      • June 28, 2012 at 1:42 am

        Nicky, regardless of how you feel, please show respect here. That is all I ask.

        That being said, (and I mean no disrespect, this is an honest question) do you feel that those who appear female but are genetically male are in fact male? The reason I ask this is because stating that a person’s sex boils down to their DNA alone seems contradictory. Is there something I am unclear on in regard to your belief?

      • June 28, 2012 at 2:47 am

        I base my view on biological science and science that is factual and current. Not on feelings and pseudoscience.

      • June 28, 2012 at 1:52 am

        Not sure about the nut job part, but completely agree on the harmful effects of misinformation. One of the things I find interesting is the debate of what is and is not intersex. I think this is a strong difference between it and trans. Most trans people (at least the ones I know) appear to embrace their identity of trans leading up to and through transition (although that seems to fade post op). In the intersex community, however there is such a stigma attached that people either embrace it and fight or reject it and attempt to redefine. I have heard from some intersex people who believe that chromosomal differences are the ONLY qualifier, others (like the fellow here) who argue that it isn’t because there is often not a genital variation. I have heard some who argue that genital variation without chromosomal variation is NOT intersex and others who argue that it is. Sometimes it is difficult to truly define and that makes it difficult to explain to those who are generally clueless to intersex all around.

        I don’t know if either of you read the post about stupid shit (and yes, that is acceptable here) people say. There really is no other way to describe it to people who don’t get it other than to use the dirty ‘H’ word (I hate that word, BTW). *sigh*

      • June 28, 2012 at 2:45 am

        That’s because Intersex people don’t want anything to do with Trans people. They want a space of their own and a space to heal from all the medical abuse. At the same time they do not want anything to do or associate with the trans people and that is because Intersex people do not see themselves as trans. They see themselves as normal people with a medical condition.

      • June 28, 2012 at 11:59 am

        “That’s because Intersex people don’t want anything to do with Trans people. They want a space of their own and a space to heal from all the medical abuse. At the same time they do not want anything to do or associate with the trans people and that is because Intersex people do not see themselves as trans. They see themselves as normal people with a medical condition.”

        That’s how most trans people see themselves, that being trans is a medical condition, and not all intersex people will share your ideas, just as not all trans people share my ideas. What’s the phrase, “Opinions are like arseholes, everyone’s got one”

        Lynne, Sarah’s my name so you can use it 🙂 just don’t abuse it or you’ll owe me a new one lol

      • June 28, 2012 at 3:19 pm

        What ever, but most intersex people I know of, don’t want anything to do with Trans people. They simply want a space that is free of Trans people. On top of that they don’t want trans people scaring the crap out of parents of intersex kids into shoving them into the operating room. That’s why Intersex activist like myself want a space for ourselves to heal from all the medical and social abuse. We simply want our own space with no Trans people because trans will do more harm and more damage to intersex kids and infants. It’s bad enough to be seen as a lab rat and a freak of nature by medicine and scientific community. On top of that you have trans who try to want to work with us, thinking they will have an in with the real freaks. Which as a result, pisses off intersex people like myself. Which is why intersex people don’t want anything to do with the Trans community and distance themselves from trans people.

      • June 28, 2012 at 7:32 pm

        Speak for yourslf Nicky, not everyone feels the same as you, but to me it sounds like you’re using transpeople as a scapegoat.

      • June 28, 2012 at 7:51 pm

        Guess again. I think your using trans people to barge into spaces that your not welcomed, such as women’s only and lesbians only space

      • June 28, 2012 at 8:27 pm

        Nicky, transwomen are women, and some transwomen are lesbians, would you rather a bunch of hairy bearded transmen turn up at women only events, as you clearly don’t think transwomen are women, so I doubt you think transmen are men. And another thing, you do not decide who or what makes a man or what makes a woman, so why don’t you take your bigotry somewhere else.

      • June 28, 2012 at 10:56 pm

        Ah nope and according to Biological science and DNA science, transwomen are not women. They are mutilated men and will always be men no matter how many surgeries or how many hormones are pumped into the system. Transwomen are Men from birth and have all the male upbringing and male privilege. As for your so called bigotry claim, That is meaningless because I do not believe in bigotry like the Radical feminist such as GallusMag and Cathy Brennan. It just clearly shows how misguided and misogynist Trans can be.

      • 75 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 5:04 pm

        Passing on a false assumptions like it’s a fact, oh golly gosh, I wonder how I do that when I don’t identify as intersex and don’t regard the karyotype I have and the disease I’m treated for as intersex? I’m lost for adequate words! I’m harming intersex people by denying I’m intersex, geez imagine how much I can harm I can do Judaism and Islam and Christianity by denying I’m any of them! I clearly need to keep up my opposition as I’ve now become so powerful, and I never knew it! 🙂

        “I have heard from some intersex people who believe that chromosomal differences are the ONLY qualifier, others (like the fellow here) who argue that it isn’t because there is often not a genital variation. I have heard some who argue that genital variation without chromosomal variation is NOT intersex and others who argue that it is.”

        It is OBVIOUS to me that I am male. It’s so obvious that I could not pass as a woman at a Naturists Garden Party. And all those years I lived, 17 of them, not knowing my karyotype, I never once thought to myself “you don’t fit in because you’re not really male.” I am really male, really really male, I’m just so male I wanted to reinforce masculinity. Oh my gawd does that mean I have a weak masculine identity? Absobloodylutely right I DID. I HATED my UGLY body, it was ghastly! How can I change my ugliness I pondered whilst dangling from the end of a rope! Oh yeah, being diagnosed with Klinefelter’s syndrome was not a delight, it was a tragedy!

        Anyway so I figure, having met quite a few guys of the male variety with supernumerary X sex chromosomes who also tried to kill themselves after diagnosis, I determined to GET EDUCATED so I can pass on my “false assumptions like it’s a fact” and bring more and more of my kind to the everlasting truth, UGLINESS IS ONLY SKIN DEEP.

        Have a lovely day.

    • June 28, 2012 at 1:56 am

      I understand your frustration, but personally his tone was rather accusatory. Also, I have a problem when people argue that intersex isn’t natural and is some sort of freakish mutation. Quite frankly, even if it was a freakish mutation, it is still a natural occurrence. Like I said, though, hacking children to pieces is not natural, nor is shooting them up with experimental hormone treatments as fetuses to make sure their clits aren’t going to offend at birth.

      • 77 xxyzguy
        June 29, 2012 at 4:26 am

        To argue that something is “not natural” is not the same as saying it’s a “freakish mutation.” I have been XXY all my life, I have never fitted into normal society, not because I don’t see myself as male but because I never learned social skills. You are detecting my lack of skills, and as you can see them does automatically mean you’re from “normal” society? Many men with Klinefelter’s syndrome have lapses in social skills, it’s not uncommon. It’s caused by that pesky additional PAR on our additional X, that causes us to be separate from normal society, which starts at an early age, especially when we’re not diagnosed early, like before or soon after birth.

        Kallmann syndrome is caused, believe it or not, by mutation of genes. People with Kallmann syndrome literally are genetic mutations. Men with Klinefelter’s syndrome have no genetic mutation, but often develop diseases that affect huge areas of their lives, and have that affect for years before most are diagnosed. Hormone therapy is used in us to help us, and most of us take it willingly. Some men with KS claim they were forced to take testosterone, but my doctor never did that at all. In fact getting hormone therapy was not as easy as some KS men seem to think.

        Personally I think the idea of altering development with hormones before birth is fraught with difficulty, since the amount of hormone needed to alter development in a foetus must be tiny compared to a childs’ needs. Serious care needs to be taken.

      • June 29, 2012 at 4:36 am

        See my comment at the bottom of the page.

    • 79 xxyzguy
      June 30, 2012 at 3:56 am

      He’s been at it for so long now, it’s just not worth the effort to reply to his illogical nonsense.

  12. June 28, 2012 at 5:09 am

    *sigh* awesome. -_-

    Hey Nicky, I have 3 friends who are intersex. They don’t have a problem with me. They don’t have a problem with my gender how I present as, etc. You do. You’re no better than those plastic Christians who think anything that isnt good in the bible is wrong. You hide behind the words ‘Science’ and “biology’ just as badly as they do with a bible. Since I have 3 intersex friends, I don’t consider you’re view of us to be the opinion of the general intersex community.

  13. 81 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 12:15 am

    Thank you for publishing my comment. I have been seeing an endocrinologist for 36 years, at no time in those 36 years has he ever described my situation as ‘INTERSEX.’ I am clearly and obviously male physically speaking, clearly and obviously male emotionally, and clearly and obviou8sly male chromosomally. Remember I only have 1 X chromosome active in all my cells, just like everybody else . Difficulties arise as X inactivation is probably not uniform, that is in most females the inactivated X is random, therefore logically speaking each X is inactivated roughly 50/50. In XXY males their X’s are inactivated in different areas of the body, so XXY males with random inactivation in their testes for instance, would be fertile. Most it seems have non random X inactivation in their testes.

    As for what I think, I have total control on what I think which does not require assertions by others. If you want to know what I think your best bet is to ask me, not anybody else.

    I misunderstood your comment about Downs’ people. I read it that you were saying they were infertile, please accept my apology.

  14. 82 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 12:31 am

    Anybody can identify as Intersex. One does not need any medical diagnosis or psychiatric diagnosis to identify as intersex. By that reasoning also nobody can have the label of intersex foisted onto them by others, identity is a personal choice. This is a shortened version of Michelle O’Brien’s “Minifesto” for OII (Organisation Intersex International) which also states that intersex is not a disease or pathology, intersex is identity. I do not identify as intersex. I do not represent intersex ideas or people. I represent myself, and I’m very good at it. I know about some medical conditions that some like to use to define why they think they’re intersex, but as you can read above they do not need to do that, all they need do is IDENTIFY.

  15. 83 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 2:52 am

    The association between Klinefelter’s syndrome and Transsexualism:

    • June 29, 2012 at 3:03 am

      I will try REALLY HARD to watch that without being overly critical as A. Dude’s a psychiatrist, and B. It’s Anderson Cooper.

      • June 29, 2012 at 3:15 am

        Just ask him what he thinks about Chloe Prince and Caroline cossey. I think he has a blog post somewhere where he attacks Chloe Prince and Caroline cossey. Here’s his blog http://xxyguru.blogspot.co.nz/
        And here’s his link to the Blog post that attacks Chloe Prince
        http://xxyguru.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/chloe-prince-debacle.html

        “Chloe is a transwoman, and I don’t give a fuck who she has sex with, it’s not a topic of interest. What is a topic of interest to me is her claim of being diagnosed with Klinefelter’s syndrome, as a fertile man, which to me is impossible. And the medical profession doesn’t make it any easier when they refer to men with normally functioning testes, as men with Klinefelter’s syndrome, when they have XXY sex chromosomes. My endocrinologist does it all the time, it’s like he totally point blank refuses to see the sense of his own science, that men who are X chromatin positive with seminiferous tubule dysgenesis are the only men who have Klinefelter’s syndrome.”

        “So back to Chloe, if Chloe had normal sperm production Chloe did not have Klinefelter’s syndrome. Now that Chloe has no seminiferous tubules is she cured of Klinefelter’s syndrome (if she ever had it?) But if she really is 46,XY/47,XXY as she claims in her blog, and now if not then has no testicular testosterone, she will be subject to the same diseases any other man with untreated Klinefelter’s syndrome has an increased risk of developing.”

      • June 29, 2012 at 3:44 am

        Nicky, I’m sorry, but how is that any different from the things you have said below about trans people?

        Secondly, he’s right (mostly). While she may be XXY, she would not be classified as Klinefelter’s if she was fertile. While the NIH recognizes that XXY individuals may be asymptomatic, it also states that asymptomatic men are refered to as XXY and not as Klinefelter’s.

        I’m not sure that makes sens outside of my own head, so let me know if it was confusing.

      • 87 xxyzguy
        June 29, 2012 at 4:48 am

        I’m clearly not attacking anyone, I’m expressing my views to a Transsexuals claim to be Transsexual because of Klinefelter’s syndrome. I’ve been treated for Klinefelter’s syndrome since I was 17, that’s 36 years! I can tell you I had low testosterone since age 14, (that’s an estimate as I wasn’t diagnosed until age 17), I never collected womens underwear, as Chloe claims she did when she was Ted. I never thought of myself as anything other than male. Nobody else saw me as anything but male.

        The more I live the more I learn, and the more I understand how little I know, but there’s no bloody way Chloe Prince ever had Klinefelter’s syndrome. 🙂

  16. 88 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 3:51 am

    Why is Nicky allowed to attack me viciously and my comments have to be approved? I link to my blogspot Blog, and my video and my comments, why do you need to imply there’s something wrong with them by allowing Nicky’s attachment of them? Chloe Prince does not have Klinefelter’s syndrome, if she did she’d know who the diagnosing doctor was and which hospital s/he worked at. Chloe is happy to tell us all where she had her Transitioning surgery done and who the surgeon is but claims “privacy” when questioned about her supposed Klinefelter’s diagnosis.

  17. 91 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 4:00 am

    Yes I hate the Jewish religion, and the Muslim religion, and the Christian religion, and every other religion that justifies butchering boys genitals, soon after birth, or later upon pressure to conform to God’s wishes. It’s all bullsh*t, it’s just plain criminal that childrens’ genitals are subject to such “approved” abuses, and no different to clitoris shortening, or labia removal!

    • June 29, 2012 at 4:18 am

      I had this same discussion elsewhere (minus the hate) earlier today….

      “Genital surgery on infants for the purposes of aesthetics is nothing but mutilation. Tattoos do not cause adverse health effects if done correctly in a sterile environment, but how many 6 month olds do you see being carried around with a snake on their bicep?

      Secondly, how dare we (the US) tell other cultures that FGM is horrible and wrong when we do it ourselves to our boys? It is NOT shown to be cleaner (as is suggested for FGM) and it does NOT decrease disease (as is suggested for FGM). It does, however, reduce the number of nerves (as does FGM), come with a risk of infection or accidental injury (as does FGM), and is done as a means to conform to cultural ‘norms’ (as is FGM).

      • 93 xxyzguy
        June 29, 2012 at 8:05 am

        On Bodies Like Ours, where I’m banned for not supporting Judaisms’ “right” to butcher boys penises. The proprietor of BLO is apparently Jewish and my comments upset him. Too bad I say! I see a direct relationship between Infant Genital Normalisation Surgery and Infant Genital Denormalisation Surgery! They’re still infants who don’t get to choose permanent surgeries on their genitals. If a parent believed their child had too long earlobes, and simply cut them off with a razor within 7 days of birth, that parent would be charged with child abuse. But because it’s a boys penis and a Jewish religious leader does it, in exactly the same way, it is acceptable behaviour. That is hypocrisy, and I cannot believe those who are opposed to genital surgeries on infants refuse to condemn that barbaric practice!

  18. June 29, 2012 at 4:15 am

    So, to each and every one of you (and sadly, this reveals the rare personal info), I have a few questions that I really REALLY want you to think about before answering. Take your time. Mull it over.

    So, how exactly do we get children not to hate their bodies. You, as adults, are arguing over what does or does not constitute intersex, trans, etc, saying all the time that you hate so much of what you have been dealt. So, how do we stop it? How do I keep MY child from hating HIS body? How do I teach him that he is different, but he is every bit of the man he wants to be? How do I help HIM, as we go through the little struggles of constant bathroom puddles, to the big struggles of urology appointments, arguing about genetic testing, and fighting with the school so he can shower in private? How do I help HIM not to grow up and hate himself or others as much as so many of YOU do? I don’t want that for him. I have too many trans friends, friends he knows and loves, to hate any of them. I have wonderful students who have come to me, confided their intersex diagnoses, hiding it from others around them. I have had wonderful students tell me they wished they were intersex, just so their parents wouldn’t hate them and might let them back into their homes and lives.

    I just don’t understand this animosity. What does it matter? Let a trans person search for acceptance, and even claim it if they want. WHO THE FUCK CARES!!!!??? All I want is for the kids that aren’t jaded and hateful yet, not to get that way.

    • June 29, 2012 at 6:12 am

      Honestly, a good start is in the home. Parent need to keep putting the message across that being a man or a woman is not a matter of what is between your legs but what is in your heart and how you choose to interact in the world. The battles you fight for your son shouldn’t have to be fought. I don’t quite understand the bathroom puddles though. Is this a medical problem or he is waiting too long to go to the bathroom?

      The issue transsexuals face is that transition is seen as a choice. In a way, it is. Would you chose to live? or die? When we transition it is because we chose to live. I tried to live as a male but I couldn’t do it. I felt dead inside. I couldn’t function as a male any more. I knew who I was and I had so much external pressure on me to live as a male even by people with whom I was out to. And I literally saw my life boiled down to two things: transition or die. And I had a knife at my wrist and almost made the wrong one. What stopped me was thinking about my son and how I want to see him have a great future, like any parent. And that perhaps it didn’t matter how I looked as long as I was there and I was myself. No matter what my son does, if he turned out to be gay, bi, trans, etc. I would still love him as much as I do now. But people, like Nicky, would be happy to see us make the bad choice so that Nicky can feel all nice and warm inside with his title of Intersex.

      You’re doing all you can for your son D. No one could ask more than that. You love unconditionally and with an open heart. I wish there were more people out there like that.

    • 97 xxyzguy
      June 29, 2012 at 7:01 am

      I had a think s about your question as you asked, and I consider one teaches ones children by living it. My ex-wife hates her body, hates looking in a mirror, hates being filmed, therefore will find it difficult to teach anyone that she or anybody should love their own body.

      Love and hate are both choices, not feelings, although most experience them as feelings. One has to choose to love oneself and then act out that choice. So even if a person really does hate their own body, for their children they should act as if they love it. The children will learn to love themselves and be proud. In my opinion.

  19. 98 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 5:13 am

    Nicky said:

    “I have to agree with you, Graeme’s interpretation is all wrong and very much flawed.”

    I am XXY, I have proven in video that I’m treated for Klinefelter’s syndrome and that my karyotype is 47XXY, hell all anyone need do is go to my YouTube channel to read my karyotype. I’m writing of things I know about from personal experience, my medical history, my doctors letters to each other and to me. How can I possibly misinterpret myself?

    http://www.youtube.com/user/XXYforLIFE

    “He’s one of those idiots who think’s he’s gods gift to the intersex community.”

    Nicky just because a word has an ‘s’ at the end doesn’t mean to say there’s need for an apostrophe before it, apostrophes are used to designate (in this instance) that a letter is missing, “thinks” is a word with no letters missing. 🙂 I have information about XXY and Klinefelter’s syndrome which I do not regard as intersex, therefore I have no information for people who think they’re intersex because of them.

    “Him and Zoe Allen Brain are nut jobs of the intersex community with no background or no education”

    Zoe does claim to be intersex, I do not. Zoe has been attacked by you, as have I. That is our only relationship, we are both your victims. Zoe supports things I do not support and others I do support. I quite like Zoe as a person, I don’t know if she likes me or not, but I won’t let any possible dislike of me interfere of my like of her. That’s just the way I am, born this way! 🙂

    • June 29, 2012 at 6:23 am

      Whatever loser. We all know your the most uneducated fool ever. Using old science as if it’s fact or new. Your just like Zoe Allen Brain and all the nutjobs on the Internet that radical feminist have told me. It seems to me your the one who’s so uneducated and can’t see the changes. It’s clear you are not science logic and don’t know jack about Science, Biology and DNA. It’s quite obvious for an idiot tho claims to be an expert on intersex conditions, but doesn’t have the EDUCATION. Quite frankly You are the most deluded dood to walk the planet. Oh and we all know you hate trans people like Caroline Cossey and Chloe Prince. On top of you hating Jewish people and their religion. Also we can include racism as well. Even included the fact that you got kicked out of every intersex group from KS&A, XXYTALK and BLO. Even known for attacking people from OII such as Micheal Noble and Hilda Viloria. Let not forget that jim moore told me that you threatened people on KS&A as well.

      Oh please, Victim my ass. We have Youtube vids saved on archive of you attacking people like Patrick John Doran, Happycabbie, Gavan Coleman, Mishakailana and many others on Youtube. You even harassed and intimidated a pregnant woman on youtube at one time. Your only playing victim because You got caught attacking, stalking, Harassing and bullying people because people know it and saw what you actually did to them. We all know you lie through your teeth and pulling the same stunt you did when you tried to murder your landlord, Robert Derek Baker and the New Zealand Cops heard about it. Even made a video threatening to harm NZ cops including Senior SGT kris burbry as well.

      Quite frankly Graeme, Your a deluded nut job and a convicted felon with a dose of being psychotic.For you to claim to be an expert on Klinefelter’s syndrome and intersex people and not ever sat in a college science classroom. Show’s how uneducated you really are. Your really are like Zoe Allen Brain who likes to cut and paste facts, drop tons of useless crap and claim to be an expert without proper education.

      • 100 xxyzguy
        June 29, 2012 at 6:48 am

        Nicky I have all your videos you made about me, in one you say almost exactly the same thing 16 times in succession, that you believe I am homosexual, as you hate homosexuals as much as you hate transsexuals. I don’t know who the “we” you speak of are, maybe figments of your imagination? If I made videos threatening to harm people I would be arrested as in this country that is a crime. In your country hate speech is not a crime in itself, in New Zealand hate speech is a crime in itself. We do not have the right to just speak crap because we can, in your country your laws allow you to be the mean nasty sod your parents raised you to be, they must be so proud of you!

        I don’t make any claims at all as to my knowledge, but I do about yours, it is non existent. You know absolutely nothing about absolutely everything. You hate transsexual people as they’re a nice easy target for you to hate. However your Supreme Court has determined that trans people who’ve transitioned are entitled to protection of the law just like anybody else, in that regard they cannot be fired or not rehired if they transition, that you hate that decision I really don’t think any sensible person will give a shit about. Your opinion is as fucked as you are.

  20. 101 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 7:50 am

    “Tractus de Hermaphrodites” by Giles Jacob.

    The above title is not a medical book. In medical literature hermaphrodites are persons with ovarian and testicular tissue in the same or opposite gonads. Mostly their genital appearance is either male or female and can sometimes be ambiguous. In medical literature most hermaphrodites – and there are only around 400 officially described – have a testicle or an ovary and ovotesti, or an ovary and a testicle. Two descriptions exist that I know of where the patient had 2 ovaries and a testicle. 1 of them had male genitalia and he developed severe difficulties at age 28 where one of the ovaries became diseased and he experienced extreme physical pain. The ovaries were removed and the testicle secured in the scrotum. He was from Turkey and the report was published online from a Brazilian publication.

    • June 29, 2012 at 1:37 pm

      I know it isn’t medical, just one of the two cases I know that have been published. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t believe Krafft-Ebing’s any better even though it is a medical text. He was a classicist, misogynist, homophobic bastard. Also, he was just an ass.

      • 103 xxyzguy
        June 29, 2012 at 9:11 pm

        Unfortunately Lynn I base almost all my knowledge in medical literature. So when someone claims to have been reported in medical literature as having two complete sets of functioning opposite gonads, in their correct anatomical position, I want to see the evidence. That the evidence is not forthcoming proves to me the claim is fictitious. Also having 3 completely different conditions that can loosely be described as intersex, beggars belief. Such a person would definitely be described in medical literature, hell I’m described in medical literature and I’m just a boring old, run of the mill, XXY. 🙂

      • June 29, 2012 at 11:58 pm

        In all technicality, the Krafft-Ebing is a medical publication, but he also says that lower class pedophiles are sick jerks, while upper middle class and upper class pedophiles are epileptic and can’t help it because they are having seizures. :/

  21. 105 xxyzguy
    June 29, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    So you’re now supporting Transsexual people who claim to be ‘intersex’ to justify their transitioning Nicky? Chloe Prince clearly does not have Klinefelter’s syndrome Nicky, as it is impossible for her to have fathered 2 children if she did have Klinefelter’s syndrome, being that Klinefelter’s syndrome is characterised by infertility. Caroline Cossey MAY have Klinefelter’s syndrome, but her only proof that she does have Klinefelter’s syndrome is her own word, which is not good enough.

    I note you like to order people you claim are Transsexual who say they’re intersex to provide medical proof of their claims, a little thing that you’ve never done yourself.

    What is your claim to being intersex other than your identity Nicky? Is it that you think your perfectly normal penis, that you described in video, is not big enough for you? It is that your testes are tiny? Is it that you were diagnosed with Kallmann syndrome when you failed to enter puberty when your parents expected you to? If you had ambiguous genitalia as you frequently and erroneously claim, you would have been diagnosed upon your entry to the USA when you were an infant! Your parents never kept secrets from you, your medical record was never hidden from you, except for the parts too complicated for you to read.

    Nicky face it, you’re a fraud, just like Chloe Prince, Rudy A Alaniz (Mishakailana), and Baron Von Munchhausen. You’re about as intersex as I am!

    • June 30, 2012 at 12:01 am

      Well, according to the medical folks….

      OK, sorry. That was not nice, but it is the only jab I’ve taken and you walked right into it. This would be a much more productive conversation if people would behave and/or ignore those who don’t. Just sayin’.

      • 107 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 4:03 am

        I think, in all honesty, that you ought to delete this, and my baby bottle comment. It was just a knee jerk reaction to another comment that has been deleted.

  22. June 29, 2012 at 11:57 pm

    Nicky, yet again you choose not to reply to my question regarding transmen (who you must see as women) turning up with a full face of beard to women only events.

    Also, you constantly state that xxyzguy hate jews, is a paedophile, is this that and the other – none of that is good, but nothing to do with this subject being discussed here, so do you not have any valid arguements, or are you just filled and fueled by hate?

    Lynne, just do what you’ve already been doing (or I pressume you have) with your son, and that’s to love him, comfort him when he needs it, and be the best mother you can be.

    Nicky, you are a sad excuse for a human being and one of the most closed minded bigots it has been my misfortune to come across. Do yourself a favour, eat some chocolate, get laid, do something to put a smile on your face that doesn’t involve attacking someone else, I’m done with you.

    • 109 xxyzguy
      June 30, 2012 at 4:16 am

      Can I have a go? I will anyway. In American law transsexuals are the sex they’ve transitioned to, which affords them protections especially in the realm of employment. So no matter what maladies Chloe Prince claims she has, she is a she, and a ‘linesman’ what she was before she transitioned. Transmen in law must be the same, men!

      Of course chromosomally speaking they are XY and XX respectively for the most part. I read one study somewhere that showed a tiny percentage of transfolk were chromosomally mixed, That’s how some people see XXY or XXXY or XXYY. I don’t, I see people as they present, and what they have between their legs or how they got what’s between their legs, never enters my thinking.

      And really it’s all of no consequence. Even if there was a womens group that wanted only biological women as members, and decided those who didn’t “look” women enough were banned, well I’m sure the banned will find support in a group that would be supportive.

      • June 30, 2012 at 11:56 am

        Actually that’s not the case, some states allow you to legally change the gender markers in your official documents and some don’t, and you can probably guess which states do and which don’t.

      • June 30, 2012 at 1:43 pm

        I absolutely hate that crap. That’s just what anybody needs, a driver’s license an/or passport that doesn’t match one’s appearance. THAT goes over GREAT with airport security. :/

      • July 1, 2012 at 2:11 am

        So what is the point of having a “Supreme Court” when it does not have SUPREME authority?

    • 113 xxyzguy
      June 30, 2012 at 3:48 pm

      I’m referencing a US Supreme Court decision of 2008 (I think) where a Gov’t employee went to an interview for a job as a man, then transitioned, and arrived for work some months later as a woman and was not allowed to work. The Court ruled that the woman was entitled to be employed as a woman as transsexuals were protected by employment law and anti discrimination law.

      The situation you describe might not fall directly within the realms of that decision, and whether or not the state allows persons to change may well be irrelevant, since it’s how the person appears that determined her non employment, not necessarily her legal sex/gender.

      • June 30, 2012 at 4:00 pm

        I understand what she means, though. Most employers require photo id before employment. If the sex on that doesn’t match what is presented, that could be used not to hire.

      • June 30, 2012 at 4:28 pm

        Again, this is on a state by state and judge by judge thing. Unless there is something like a fully inclusive version of ENDA, you can be fired legally in some states for being gay or trans.

      • July 1, 2012 at 2:02 am

        Oh wow this is odd, what is the point of having a “Supreme Court” if it has no SUPREME authority?

      • July 2, 2012 at 7:19 am

        That’s just how the system of law works in the USA, I can’t tell you any more as I’m not all that up on US law, I just know that there are nationwide laws and statewide laws.

      • July 2, 2012 at 2:47 pm

        That is a fabulous question. When we figure it out, I’ll let you know.

      • 119 xxyzguy
        June 30, 2012 at 4:36 pm

        When did I last apply for a job? I can’t remember, I didn’t need photo ID anyway. Those were the days when I could travel to Australia without a passport, under any old name I chose. Before Airport Security, and body searches, and terrorism, and bombs on planes and in some twits shoes & underwear.

        Ahhhh, progress doesn’t appear to have brought much in the way of freedom!


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